How to Handle Horses with Multiple Possible Breeds

Hello all!

I've been showing on OMHPS a short while and something continues to confuse me.

I have this horse: Trial By Fire

He could be a wide variety of mustangs. I currently have his breed listed as a specific type of Mustang, and his crossbreeds as other types of mustangs.

Because I have some other breeds listed in his crossbreed section, he was recently disqualified from a show that required purebreeds (my bad, I didn't notice that rule).

How would I go about handling a horse like him that could be multiple breeds?

For instance, I want to classify him as both an American Mustang to enter shows where American stock breeds are required, as well as a Spanish Mustang, to enter shows that require Spanish lineage. But both of these would be pure breeds, not cross breeds.

Do I upload him twice, under different primary breeds? Is that allowed?

Do not upload him twice, that is absolutely against the rules.

You will have to pick just one breed if you want to show him as a purebred. The American Mustang and Spanish Mustang are quite different, so you should do some research to verify which he fits best. You could also show him as a crossbreed. I looked at his profile, and if it were me, I would show him as a (pure) American Mustang, but that is my opinion and you should choose what you feel he fits the best. :)

Very few models can be shown as strictly only one breed, so choosing the single best breed for a model is a major part of photo/live showing. I'm glad you've joined OMHPS, and hope your herd finds great success! :D

Thanks very much for the reply!

Where are the rules posted? I can’t seem to find anything regarding the topic except the image use policy, which only talks about the use of photos with permission.

You're welcome! I always am glad to see someone post a question, instead of assuming or just ignoring the problem. :)

I don't know if there is an "official OMHPS" rule, but it is a universe wide showing rule and just good manners. Otherwise someone could upload all their horse a bazillion times, dominate classes, and just be a nuisance to judges. 🐴

Most shows have it listed in their own rules that a horse can only enter one class, and no cross-entering is allowed (cross-entering meaning entering more than one class in a show with that horse). Uploading a horse twice to enter different classes would bypass that rule. So there is no hard OMHPS "don't upload a horse twice" rule, but if you did that and entered it into the same show twice, you would be breaking the show's rules, and if the judge/host noticed, they'd absolutely disqualify one of the entrants, if not both.

SpottedDreamsStudio otherwise summed it up great. Choosing the best breed to fit your horse, even if it could be a myriad of things, is part of the showing game. If it doesn't work out as one, you can always change it later and see if that does better in future shows, but you can't show it under both simultaneously :)

pipapones: Oh yes I know not to enter the horse twice in different classes for shows where that is against the rules.

I was purely just wondering about uploading it twice to classify it as different purebreeds. It seems to me that this would fit the spirit of showing models. Some models, as stated, are obviously one breed. But some can be many, and I think having them in your database under different pure breeds, if they fit them well enough, wouldn't be in violation of anything then. it just makes it more convenient to enter different shows that you feel they might fit in, since there is no easier way to do it (right now).

There is such an issue with show judging right now. It's hard to change any details on a horse since they get locked into shows that are taking ages to get judged. haha

Azrielen, I totally feel you. In addition, I don't mean to speak negatively about judges, as I know they are doing their best, but I've been a bit disappointed lately. I won't mention any names or even the horses mentioned, because I think that it is totally unnecessary and mean to call people out. I know that all shows are to the judges personal preferences and their decisions are final, but I've recently had some disqualifications that I felt were a bit unfair. I have a horse listed as a breed that I felt fit a certain body type (there are several varying builds) of his breed, but he was then disqualified in a class for not being that breed and being another breed, per the judges personal assignment of what breed my horse should be. I also had another horse who had the markings of one breed but was shown as another breed since his "sire" and the horse his model was based off of was the breed I show him as was disqualified. I really don't want to be pouring negativity at all, I just wanted to maybe bring to attention the fact that I feel that I can't properly choose my breeds (which I extensively research; I am a part of the PA side of the hobby, so it's essential that I am) and still place well. If this is too negative or I am accidentally calling someone out, please let me know. I don't want this to be a source of rudeness and calling people out, just a way of seeing if others are having the same situations as myself.

PeachwoodEstates said:

I also had another horse who had the markings of one breed but was shown as another breed since his "sire" and the horse his model was based off of was the breed I show him as was disqualified.

If I'm reading this right, and your model is copied from a real-life horse who has markings atypical for his breed, but is definitely a pure and registered example, why not include a photo of the living horse as a reference? That would mean judges shouldn't disqualify him any more, as you're proving it's possible.
But, you have to remember that as well as judging the quality of sculpt and paintjob, judges are also comparing each model to the breed standard. In those moments of making decisions, we're replicating the job of an actual horse judge, standing in an arena or a field, looking at real horses and trying to decide which is the best example of the breed - closest to the perfection of the ideal as set out in the breed standard. Obviously conformation comes first (and they're looking at things like condition and movement and health and behaviour and grooming, which we don't have in model showing!), but colour does count. If there's certain markings which are unwanted or not allowed, that real horse would likely be placed well down the lineup, or unplaced if the class was large, because the breed standard prefers something else.
So when it comes to judging models, a horse with incorrect or undesirable markings for his breed (which I assume is what you mean by 'has the markings of one breed but shown as another' - meaning he's displaying something he shouldn't have, not just something which is rare), the judge is doing their job properly if they're placing the horses with the right markings above him. Disqualification isn't right or fair, if you've got a reference photo or link there to show it can happen in the pure breed, but leaving him unplaced is allowed, and what a real horse judge would do.

As for showing as more than one breed, we've all done it. I started live and photo showing in the early 2000s, and loads of my models have changed breed since then, some of them multiple times. Some because I just changed my mind, some because I forgot what I had them as and picked something new, some because I learnt more, some because breed standards altered or updated, some because model showing asked for more precise info than it used to.
But they were changed, from one thing to another, not just simultaneously trying to show the same model as different breeds - you pick one, and stick with it til you decide for whatever reason to swap to something else. If there's a class or show it can't enter because it's not for that breed or type, never mind, just bad luck - there'll be other classes. As a couple of people already said above, allocating the breed is a big part of the hobby, even if the model can be several similar breeds you really do have to pick just one you feel is the best match, rather than using it as an opportunity to get into more classes.

I get that it's hard to change model breed on here while there's unjudged shows, and when there's a long delay or an abandoned show you might still be waiting for a gap between getting existing entries judged and entering anything new with the same horse. The system has really got to be this way, otherwise imagine the chaos - all of a sudden there'd be entries already sitting in classes which aren't for their new breed.
If you suspect the show is really never getting judged, or you get fed up waiting, you could just retract the entry - this might be worth doing if you feel you really need to update the breed, as the horse stands a better chance of being placed in all future shows with a well-suited breed, than it does in hanging on for one old show result as a less well-suited breed from a judge who might never come back! Any current entries to open shows you can retract too, make your breed edits, then re-enter before the closing date.

There has been a lot of issues lately with unnecessary DQ's being given out. Disqualifications should only be used if the horse is breaking a rule in some way. For example, a duplicate entry, a custom in OF, a fully tacked up horse in halter, etc. That is where a DQ comes in.

A DQ does NOT come in when the judge disagrees with the breed assignment. The judge should simply just not place those models. Unfortunately, some judges seem to think it does.

I think as a result we will be adding some pre-warnings for judges when they are DQing a model. A pop-up box that comes up when they click DQ, for example, saying "Is this model breaking the show's rules? Disqualifications should only apply to rule breaking, not incorrect breed assignments or similar. If you don't agree with the breed assignment, simply do not place the model."

pipapones said:

I think as a result we will be adding some pre-warnings for judges when they are DQing a model. A pop-up box that comes up when they click DQ, for example, saying "Is this model breaking the show's rules? Disqualifications should only apply to rule breaking, not incorrect breed assignments or similar. If you don't agree with the breed assignment, simply do not place the model."

Thank you for doing this! Hopefully that will cut down the number of unnecessary DQs.

Thank you so much pipapones! Glad to know I wasn't alone in this 😁. And HarecroftHorses, thanks for the help! The model mentioned was correct to color standards as far as I know, but I've added references to avoid further problems. Thanks to everyone though!

I agree wholeheartedly with all who point out one of the unwritten but universally understood rules of model horse showing: when it comes to breed assignment, pick ONE, including a suitable crossbreed if your horse has hooves in more than one obvious pie. I've got a model I show as a Lipizzan x Lusitano, and he does very well. You can always change a breed assignment too, if you think of a better fit. But showing a model as multiple breeds simultaneously because "it could be this, but it could also be that" or to get it into more shows is generally considered a no-go.

I also agree wholeheartedly that DQs ought not to be the default (re)action when a judge doesn't feel a model fits a certain breed standard; the one exception might be if someone enters a *declared* Arabian in the Quarter Horse class. We all make entry mistakes! But if someone *declares* their Family Arab Stallion is a Quarter Horse and enters it accordingly, well, okay. It's their model, and how they see it. As a judge, I will see it differently, and it won't place. I'm not going to call out the owner by DQing their entry. They have their opinion, and I have mine.

And who knows? Some other judge might think the FAS males a dandy QH. ;-D